You are listening to the cactus project with your host Mel McDonald.

Hi, this is Melanie today’s interview is. A really interesting one. We are talking to Trish Jenkins, who I don’t actually want to give away too much because the twist in her story is quite shocking. But if you ever wanted to hear a comeback story, this is it. So I’m not going to tell you too much about Trish.

We’re just gonna go straight into the interview and I will let you find out for yourself. Uh, I hope you find it as astonishing and fascinating as I did. Thank you for joining us for this interview today, Trish, I am very grateful for you making the time to do this. When I heard your story, I thought it was a perfect fit for this cactus project sequence.

If anyone knows the meaning of things going to cactuses, you sound like you are. And, um, and I really like your line about prison bears. What is it? That prison? The strongest prison bars are in your head, in your head. And as we talk, people understand why that sentence has a lot more significance for you than it probably does for most people.

So before we talk about the extraordinary twist in your story, can we start back a little bit at the beginning? What were you doing for a business before the event? Yes. Well, uh, my husband and I had been doing real estate. And there wasn’t a lot of cash flow in that we, you know, bought properties, done them up and bought another one.

And we looked at doing shares and things, and I, you know, we wasn’t that great at it. But, uh, I met a fellow who ran a managed fund and, uh, he, uh, I mean, I had the qualification to be an authorized rep from another job that I’d had. And so I invested with him. And then he hired me to be his authorized representative for his fund.

And so you, you guys had been doing, when you say you’ve been doing real estate investment, you were buying properties like you weren’t working as a real estate agent? No. No. Just as investors, two investors. Okay. And did you do okay out of that, were you in a reasonably strong financial position at that point?

We were, well, we were asset rich cash flow poor. Right. So we were looking for. Cash flow. Right. And we had some investments that started to work for us like that. And then this one was a reasonably good return and, uh, all the due diligence I knew to do, seemed to come up. Alright. You did due, due diligence prior to investing or prior to taking a job?

Yeah. Yes, no, I did. We invested a certain amount with him and then he asked me to work for him. Okay. Because he said he. He doesn’t have the people skills and he just didn’t wanna be talking to all these people who wanted to be making money from him. And he just wanted to be left alone to trade cuz he was, it was a boutique, uh, managed fund.

Right. And uh, during that process he got licensed. So yeah, it was very early days. And so we invested with him, people put money with him. Other people put money with him and it went quite well for he’d been doing it. He told me how long he’d been doing it for. Uh, I don’t believe that was actually true, but I was working for him for about a year and a half and every month the returns would come in and my job was to make sure everybody got paid.

So I would pay everyone. And you were invest. You had invested with him as well. So you were getting paid too. Yes. Yes. We had $104,000 with him. Right. And in those days that was a lot of money. That was when houses, I think houses were about that much. Then the value of a house. It was 2004. I can’t remember what houses were then, but they were going up at the time.

So maybe that would be a modest house. Okay. Yeah, it would be, it would’ve been a modest one, but, but, you know, yeah. She would’ve had some, two. I bought a house in 2002 for 96,000, I think, or something. So that was probably not far off. Yeah. But you know, it was a, it’s a significant investment. It’s a lot, it’s six figures.

Yeah. And, uh, we were getting our returns every month and then we kept getting them until we didn’t and he stopped paying he, well, he said to me, oh, this is happening in the market. And, and it wasn’t guarantee you can’t expect that to work every month. So my role was to tell everyone, so we are not getting paid this.

Because the market’s done this or this or whatever and whatever he had told me. And so, you know, it was like, well, that was not great, but nothing to really worry about. And how many investors were you dealing with? What sort of numbers? I probably, how many did I handle? Was it 80? It’s quite a lot then? Uh, I don’t remember exactly how many Melanie, it might not have been that many cuz some of them had multiple parcels from different entities, right.

That they had. So it, it may not have been that much. Well, it was a total of 16 to 20 million put in through them. So I’m not, not a hundred percent sure. Uh, I mean we’re talking 16, 17 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so, and so they were getting monthly payments. So what was the return like? It was high. It was a high return.

It was one where, see, I had done these, um, real estate courses where people were making huge. And when you go along to these seminars and people are making that sort of money and they’re, you know, they might be making 10% in month 20 or, or five or four or three. Uh, and you know, and it is up and down. So the, the arrangement was that, um, it was a loan.

You, you were lending the money and getting a fixed. Return and anything that he made over and above that off your money was his profit. And, uh, so, so it wasn’t, you didn’t own the shares or anything. It was loan to his company. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was a bit messy. I didn’t really under looking back. I think that was probably barely compliant and that then he, he got a license.

So he did get a license, which made everybody feel good. Um, the powers that they must have thought that, okay, what he was doing was good. The Australian securities and investments commission gave him a license. So cuz, cuz he said, you know, at first it was just a few people when he started and it was like, he said, no, I’ve gotta do this properly.

We’ve gotta get the license. I’m like, oh that’s very good. Yes. Good, good, good. So we’re all comforted by that, but that, and, and he got the license. Before he stopped paying. Uh, and so when the stoppage happened, you know, I didn’t expect it to be more than one month. And, uh, when the second month came around, you know, some people asked for their money back and they got it.

Okay. Uh, which was also reassuring. Uh, but then by the third month, other people, you know, people started as it progressed. People became more worried and frightened and he became harder for me to reach. So you weren’t working in the same office together? No, no. It was remote. Well, I, I didn’t, it wasn’t like that sort of a job, right.

It was, you know, yeah. I was, you know, on out there sort of on my own and, and it was appointment based and, uh, so I didn’t, I didn’t see him very much and I didn’t have any training. in, should things go badly, you know, handling, handling custom. I had a customer service background that was to do with retail.

right. So sorry, you can’t return this dress. It’s a bit different from, sorry, we can’t give you back to million dollars or something. Correct. You know, and, and, and I’d worked at, uh, theme parks where you had to have fantastic customer service and it was whatever you needed to do to please the customer.

Yeah. So it, it suited my nature as a people pleaser. To, to be in service and, and to have my heart in caring for people that I, that are my, and, and even today, you know, with, with what I do now, my heart is in what I deliver, because I genuinely care about the results of people. I’m much, much better at my boundaries now.

Yeah. And we’re about to find out why, but you’re about to find out why. So people were getting quite distraught and demanding and it turned ugly. So people were, so what, what happened? What was ugly? They were not getting their money. Okay. Every month, it’s pretty, I, I had no money to send them, even though it wasn’t guaranteed.

Uh, they had got used to the regularity. And had you brought like family and friends into this and things were the people that you knew not, I, I knew I, I was not allowed to promote. So I couldn’t actively promote, but when people know you’re doing well and making money, they, they wanna know what you’re doing.

And you’re in circles where people are going to seminars and motivational things. And, and yeah, I did have friends, family, uh, it was yeah. Had had money put in and, um, which, which carries ITSs own kind of grief. Yeah. Uh, as an extra that I, that I had to deal with, uh, and, and in myself, so took, get a long story.

Um, over a period of months, my personal resilience just got, and my mental health eroded and people were phoning, emailing, turning up at my house. Oh boy. Just asking, begging, demanding their money. I had no answers for them. My money. Were you actually managing the money or you just got access to it when it was time to give people the payment?

No, he. Yeah, he would, he would release money that I would, um, farm out to everyone. Right. And, uh, so, and you didn’t have access to the risk of it. You only had access to the oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. He, he had it in, in the, presumably in the market. Probably in his swimming pool and his house and his, uh, the driveway that he laid that was very, very long.

And, and, uh, I did what he was really doing. Melanie was what’s known as a Ponzi scheme for the listeners who may not know Ponzi scheme is where you put money in. And the returns you’re getting back that you think are profit are actually a little bit of your own money coming back or someone else’s or the next person who’s come in.

It’s their money that’s coming in. Correct. And that’s what he was doing. Oh, and how did that get? Well, somebody complained. To the authorities about him not making his payments. The stress that I felt. Here’s the thing, you know, you have to manage your resilience, you have to manage your stress and your self care and your boundaries and not let yourself get to the point where your stress is so high.

You cannot think straight and all you think is fearful and threatened and it impairs your judgment. And. I, I lost my perspective and, and I, I said to him, uh, look, these people have to be paid. You know, you’ve got money over there. Can I use that to pay them? Would that be okay? And he said, all right, do that.

So he gave that to me to pay them. And was that your fatal mistake? That was my fatal mistake because that money was not for them. Mm-hmm it was for something else. It wasn’t, you, you cannot use money for one thing, for something else. You can’t do it. And you’re overwhelmed by stress, not having excuses for you, but when you’re overwhelmed by.

Your judgment, like you say, you end up using terrible judgment and you feel like you have no other option. Mm-hmm now you, you would have mm-hmm but I remember just feeling like I was drowning and, and, and I carried the burden of the other people. It wasn’t just my money, cuz if he had traded badly and legitimately lost our money, uh, we could have worn that.

And that was part of the risk. That’s the risk you take in any investment, never invest more than you can afford to lose. But I was taking on the emotions of all these people and having them daily at me. And I just couldn’t take it anymore. And anybody I would’ve gone to, to get advice from such as. My accountant had money in it.

So you felt like you couldn’t talk to anybody? I did. And, and, and I thought if my accountant thought it was great and put money in, why wouldn’t it be a good idea? And, uh, yeah, I felt like I couldn’t talk to anyone. I didn’t wanna cause a panic unnecessarily. Uh, and it was just, I lost my perspective and I caved under pressure.

I can’t, Melanie, I cannot dress it up to make it look any better than what it was. I caved under. And I said, can I use this? He said, yep. So I, I just did. I made the payments to people and, uh, I didn’t steal it. I just made the payments. And very quickly after that I thought, oh, probably shouldn’t have done that.

Uh, and then when did you find out that you really shouldn’t have done that? Oh, not for a long time. Right. Uh, so people, well, I don’t know how long it was. It’s probably a few months. It’s funny is when you’re under that kind of stress, it’s really hard to remember details and time as well. Like things become blurry.

Is that what you’ve learned? Yeah. And, and yes. And you end up getting your facts wrong. And when you’re talking to the authorities, they can easily twist you up in knots because, but you said this and I went, oh, did, oh, no, but that was afterwards. Or was it before? But, um, at some point someone had, uh, someone complained to the authorities who contacted me and.

We need to talk to you about this man and what’s going on. Okay. And, uh, you have the right to representation and I went, oh, Okay. So when I went to speak to them, I said to them, look so, and I still didn’t know that he’d stolen money. All I knew was that he’d hit a RO, like he he’d been trading really well, and then it wasn’t going well.

So, um, so I said to him, you know, can I use this money? So I paid people with this other money. Um, so can you, can you just tell me what to do? Because I can actually replace that money from my mortgage. So. I’ll I’ll just put it. I’ll just put that back. I’m happy. Just tell me what do I do? So you said this to the regulators, or you said this to him.

I said this to three lawyers from the Australian securities investments commission, as they were grilling me. Did you have a lawyer for yourself there in this? I did. Yes, I did. You did. And, uh, so I said, look, you know, I, I can put it back. So, you know, just instruct me, tell me what to do and, and I’ll just do that.

So if that helps, it helps things out and they just went, um, you did what? No. And I said, well, you know, it was. Temporary just to tide him over till the next month. And they, so you still didn’t realize at this moment how much trouble you are in. No, I knew I shouldn’t have done it that way, but I thought, well, if I can put it back, then it solved first, put outta my mortgage, whack it back, you know, balance it up.

It’ll be fine. Nah, nah, what I did was a breach of the corporations act and apparently quite serious. And uh, a couple of days later, our assets were all frozen. Our bank accounts were frozen and uh, I was, I was advised to. By, uh, I was put into, it was suggested that I go into voluntary liquidation. Right.

Which was sold to me as we’ll sort you out love no, we know what we are doing. We’ll we’ll get your stuff all sorted out and set you on your way going. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Say, and when you are that frightened and desperate, you, you look for, you look for a hero. Yeah. You know, you, you, you look for someone who will come in and sort you out and rescue.

Yeah, I am very familiar with this movie up to this bit. Not the next bit. Yeah. But the rest, you know, KordaMentha, the lawyers there, Locklin Macintosh, nice enough fella. Um, like, so, you know, he didn’t take advan. Well, you know, they basically, the whole business model was about taking advantage in a way, but, you know, no, and I can mention him because, you know, he, he’s a, he’s a clever guy.

He does this sort of thing. And, uh, you know, he, um, he was actually very, uh, he was actually. Civilized about it all, but, um, yeah, so really what happened was what happens in liquidation is they sell off everything you have and pay themselves their hourly rates, plural like multiple, because they, you know, there’s them, there’s the PA there’s the secretary, there’s the photocopying.

That’s, you know, what is it, $12 a sheet or whatever, you know, and things. And, uh, and they do that, uh, pretty much until there’s none left and then you’re on your own. Uh, but then, then they do. It’s very rare that there’s money back for investors. It’s pretty much you can just write it off. Uh, and I could be wrong.

Hey, I’m not giving financial advice. I could, I’d happy to be wrong. If one of your listeners says, no, that’s not what happened to me. I’m glad you got something. I would love to meet that person too, if there’s someone who hasn’t had that result, but yeah. Right, right. And, uh, so there was nothing left and that took about two.

And we actually got some bad advice in that, where there were a couple of houses we didn’t have to sell, but were advised to. So we, we could have had something left cuz Justin, my husband was not in trouble. He didn’t do anything wrong. So anything that was in his name? Was fine, but anyway, it gets complicated cuz they wanna claw back any, uh, can you put money into something or whatever and yeah, they’re trying to get it back.

And so that, that ended that, uh, and, and actually, uh, Locklin was very decent. He, he sat us down and he said, look, I’ve done it all. I’ve gone through it all. I’ve done my report. Uh, You’re not the bad guys. It just got a bit messy at the end and you tried to kind of sort things out. Um, and you paid money that you shouldn’t have.

So the, the receivers liquidators report didn’t yeah, it was actually quite, it was actually quite favorable. Okay. As far as they can be, you know? So I, I, I think, um, he was, he was fairly decent about it. Uh, what he had to say about the other fellow on the other hand was he, he was just, it was just, you know, he just said you were done over that.

This guy’s a. Yeah. And so, uh, the report goes to the department of, uh, to ASEC who then refer it to the department of public prosecutions, who then, uh, after this couple of years I was served with papers, charging me with fraud. That’s so criminal charges. Criminal charges. And I tell you what, that’s an F word I don’t like.

Right. I’m a bit. So were you expecting them or were the first that you knew was when you were served? No. No. At first, no, but as time went on, they’d say, well, we don’t know it could, it could happen. So my first lot of lawyers, my corporate lawyers didn’t, they, they actually had trouble working out, whether I’d in indeed, um, breached the law.

Right. And actually since then, I’ve had someone, uh, a top lawyer law partner say to me, uh, I think you were actually charged with the wrong crime, right? Because it was dishonest gaining an advantage. And he said, you didn’t gain an advantage. You didn’t personally benefit saying I didn’t, I didn’t, he, you know, and I went, you should have been dishonest dealing with fans or something.

Yeah. He, he said, um, well, I don’t know, but he said, oh, you could appeal it. And I went, oh gosh, no, I don’t wanna drag it off. I said, I know what I did. I, I know my part and I own that. What I had to do was separate what I didn’t need to own. Yeah. Which bits were yours and which bit so, so they charged you and you got a fine, and you went home with your life.

That would’ve been nice. but no, no. I was served with papers and. And that just meant I had a new set of lawyers, touring and F throwing for another 18 months. And, you know, it turned up to court for, I don’t even know what these things are for a mention. And then, then this is a committal and, and so on. And, um, then finally, cuz I, I didn’t have a trial because I already, I knew what I had done.

I knew, yes, this is what I did. And, and I was wa you know, Waiting for a penalty. So you could have basically fine. Right? So you pleaded guilty if, in terms of, well, I was, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and I could have, I could have, um, got a fine, I could have got nothing. Uh, but when I finally went along to court, now, the offense was oh, five Melanie.

Right? I turned up to court in January oh nine. Right. And did you have children at this point? Yes, I did. I do. How, how old were your kids? Our eldest. We have three little girls. Our eldest Chelsea was 10 and we have little twin girls full Olivia. They were seven in January, 2009. So you turned up to court in 2009, three little kids.

Yeah. And if you, you might remember 2008 was a magic year for finance, the global, global financial crisis. Right? We’re pretty touchy. About, uh, financial scams is what it turned out to be. Mm-hmm uh, and I went to court. Had anything happened to your boss, business partner, whatever he was at this point? Well, his case was separate to mine, right?

and, uh, I was asked by the prosecution if I would cooperate against him. And I said, you bet, I will put him away myself if I could. So that was good. Uh, so that would also had an impact on their recommendation and the judge decided to, uh, ignore the prosecution’s recommendation and give me more. And actually gave me the maximum that he could, which was okay.

It’s what’s called a head sentence of two and a half years. That was suspended after eight months because I pled guilty. Wow. This is jail. We’re talking about. This is prison, not probation or communities. Thing. No, no home detention, no. You know, whatever. It’s, uh, basically from January to September, uh, I was away from my family and I was incarcerated.

Yeah. It’s unimaginable. Well, uh, you know, I had a few nightmares imagining it, and then it was real, so that they just whooped you off to prison straight away or did. Did you get to go home and pack the pajamas? And the court appearance went over two days. So I went home in between in the evening and, uh, that was really hard.

That was really fraught. Um, and then there was the, the, they said, oh, well, if you can put the money back then that will have an effect, but we can’t say how much of an effect. And it was like, well, when I could have paid it back, I would have, but now we were skit because we had spent everything we had. On these expensive lawyers, these were expensive lawyers.

And, you know, I think we spent about 160,000 in legal fees. I, I, I think I did a bit of a rough calculation at once, you know, for that, which might be nothing compared to someone else, but for us it was everything. And, and our parents said, oh, maybe we can, you know, do, and I went, you know what? No. I said, because we don’t know what it’s, we dunno what effect it’s gonna have.

It might be nearly nothing. And then, you know, I said, I, I will pay whatever price I get given. And then it will be over, is what I thought, you know, if I do, if, if that happens, it’ll be over. And, uh, so yeah, I, I got the eight months and, uh, that was the best part of a year. And that was you actually, I don’t know.

We could be here for hours if I keep. Asking you about the details, but I think, um, it’s, it’s, it’s not the experience that a lot of people have. So I think your willingness to share it is, is really generous. Thank you. I appreciate you talking about this stuff. Um, what, um, because we are gonna talk in a moment about what happened after and what happened during even, what was it like, I guess?

Yeah. That’s and then what happened? That’s a, that’s a fair question. Look, what was it like? Oh my goodness. It. It was like the Twilight zone where, you know, there are, if, if, well, probably some people won’t know that show, but it’s where the premise is. They have different fundamental rules that we normally live by that are different.

That, that good is bad. Bad is good. Comforting someone you’re not allowed to do that because you’re, um, you’re supposed to report them. If you see someone feeling down, it was just everybody’s there. Melanie everybody is there. You think that it’s just the roughs, but every strata of society is there. And, but, but most of them, yes are from disadvantaged, low socioeconomic areas.

Uh, lifestyles damaged really, really damaged, uh, particularly in know, in a women’s prison where processed and you, you, you see the doctor or the nurse and, and they remember see going through and, and seeing the, the. She might have been a doctor. I don’t know, but she was asking me all these questions about my health so they can take care of me.

And these questions were, uh, have you been raped? Uh, have you been trafficked? Have you been, were you molested? Wow. Uh, do you have a sexually transmitted disease? Uh, and it was all about sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, you know, all, all this stuff. And I. Um, I’m a married middle class woman. I’ve been married to the same guy since, you know, 92.

And, and I said, I said, how many, how many women have been affected by that sort of thing? And she said, well, give or take about 92% who come through prison who come through and, you know, there, there is a, there is a correlation between, you know, I mean, that’s not to say, you know, someone might say, well, I got molested and I never did that.

And, and I’m not, I don’t wanna denigrate that, but it it’s, it’s. So damaging, you know, the, well, if you look at, you were talking about before, when you under massive stress in the business and you made a bad decision. And so if the whole lives are overwhelming stress it’s yeah, you it’s, it’s pretty understandable that people make bad choices, isn’t it?

It, it is. And their ability to make good judgements is impaired because if they’re, if they’re in a family where things are dysfunctional and you know, they’re, they’re, they’re being abused, it affects your psyche. It affect. You’re not gonna be happy and blooming and dancing around the place and academically, you know, brilliant.

And, and so, I mean, some people would escape into school. I guess they, you know, they would do that. But when you are hurt and angry and frightened and you feel no, no safe place, you will be drawn to people who might give you some comfort. You might be drawn to alcohol or drugs because they give you some relief.

Some escape. And then you end up running with the wrong crowd who, well, you, you become the wrong crowd. Yeah. And then you’re doing crimes to get money for the drugs and you don’t have those role models. And you, you know, you, you don’t have the, you didn’t grow up with the motivational talks. You know, you can do a, you know, where everybody gets a ribbon, you know, all, all this sort of stuff, you, you just don’t have that.

So there’s so much dis it doesn’t mean that you can’t learn it and recover and grow. But what happened, Melanie? I got there. And it was so strange and it was a culture shock for sure, because I don’t come from disadvantaged. You know, I’m not overly privileged, but, but certainly a lot more privileged than I thought I was that’s for sure.

You know, I can read and write. I’ve been educated. I can, you know, I get a job I’m, I’m not in danger. I have a family that love me, you know, I didn’t realize that that. More than normal. Yeah. That most people don’t have that. Yeah. Well, well, not my, but there are a lot of people that don’t yeah. It’s it’s right.

And so I knew I had a choice. I had a choice to make, and I am fortunate that I have had a lot of training in people skills and customer service, but also in attitude and mindset, uh, and faith, including. Yeah. Yeah. How, how embarrassing is. Pastor’s kid. Yeah. Oh, that was just the shame. Oh my goodness. The shame.

Uh, but, but I knew that I had to be proactive about my response and how I was gonna think about these things. So I could, I was tempted into self pity. Yeah. That would be pretty understandable if you went there and just spent eight months lying on your bed, feeling sorry for yourself. Well, I knew that that would be.

Like that your biggest enemy is self pity because you end up justifying yourself and crippling yourself. So I had to choose a different path because I had to come out of that situation. I had a family waiting for me. So this wasn’t just about me. You know, I, I had to go through this. It’s saying that you, it’s one thing saying that you should do that, but how do you, how do you find the strength to do that?

Well, I, I do have to admit that that was faith based. Like I just, and I would say to all of your listeners, and I know this is not a religious show, but if you have got any kind of faith based that you can go back to and look for, that gave you the found you’re a principles. There are principles. Religion that, that you can find in, in all religions.

But mine happened to be pretty, pretty effective where I could find comfort and a bigger picture. And I never felt alone in my cell. I was never alone. I never felt enormous. Never felt alone. Sure. I was alone, but I never did. So, um, that was a great comfort. Uh, and, but also to, it would test your faith though, wouldn’t it?

Did it or not? Oh, I never questioned. The existence of God and, and the God, but what it did test and change was some of the assumptions I had previously held around finance and what would attract, blessing what I could expect God to do for me. Uh, you know, if I gave, if I was good, if I, you know, whatever that would automatically protect me from yeah.

Disaster. And I think sometimes we forget. Particularly in, in some of the new, the more new age people who kind of think that the universe is there’s to command mm-hmm and, uh, it’s not as you found out it’s, uh, you know, it’s not, but, um, I felt like there was a purpose. I’m not I’m, I’m also not one of these people who says, oh, everything happens for a reason.

I just wanna smash those people in the face. um, I’ll join you in that. Yeah. More, you know, I’m a rough and tough CRI aren’t I, you know, I, I hate that EXCOM. They go around you, like it was meant to happen. And, uh, and it, no, I made a wrong choice and I faced the consequences. Was not designed for me. It was, it was on the cards that I’m, that I, that that’s potentially what my, one of the options.

Yeah. Even enough pressure. I may do some, you know, maybe something of that, but I’m responsible. However, I also believe that how you see determines how you succeed. Okay. So tell me more about that. I knew that how I chose. To see that situation would determine how I went through it and how well I came out the other side.

Wow. That’s impressive. I knew it at the time. And, and so I had to choose, how am I going to see this? And I’m going to see this as a trial, a tribulation, a a, a, an event, um, a journey that I need to look for the lessons, look for the good, find everything I could. That was able to give me some joy, even if it was a few blades of grass breaking through a concrete yard.

Wow. Uh, I was mindful of looking for those things and I. Learn to ask three questions. And today I teach those questions in my shift and lift mindset program. So out of this terrible, terrible experience it’s actually developed, you’ve actually developed a business out of this, which helps other people. Is that fair description of it?

Look, it absolutely does because the strongest prison bars. Are in your head now I understand why you say that saying yeah, it doesn’t have to be a real prison. You might feel entrapped in your relationship. You might feel imprisoned in your job. You might feel imprisoned in, uh, under depression, uh, anxiety, um, you know, sickness in your body can make you feel trapped and imprisoned and how you view what you are going through will determine the kinds.

Answers that you come up with for responding. If you choose self pity, your answers are not gonna help you. They’re just gonna justify your sense of injustice and bitterness and anger, and you are gonna be even harder to deal with. And it’s gonna pay a price when you come out the end of it, it you’re gonna pay a price for choosing that path.

I consciously said to myself, you are gonna tell someone about this experience. When you get out the other side, how were you gonna be able to talk about yourself so that you’re telling the truth? So you thought about that ahead of time of who were you gonna become as a result of this and how were you gonna be able to present yourself to the world?

I did. I didn’t know I was gonna become a professional speaker, but I knew that I would be telling the girls about it eventually in an age appropriate way, coming from a church background. Um, I knew there would probably be times when I might be in a, in a group, you know, a ladies group or something, and maybe share a testimony of my story.

You know, some ladies share about their past or their, whatever they’ve gone through. And, uh, and I think, well, I need to be the person that I need to model for my children, what I would want them to do. How I would want them to respond. It certainly helps to have someone else in your life that you would want, you, you know, this will influence.

And when you come out of something, if you are bitter and you are ho if I had come home, oh look, I was messed up. When I came home, don’t get me wrong. I didn’t come home like bloom and Pollyanna. Yeah. You know, I was. Kind of I exhaled and sort of broken pieces for a while. However, uh, I had three little people that had been without their mummy for nearly a year.

So they didn’t, you didn’t have them visit you in prison or anything? Uh, only when I went to the minimum security cause everybody goes to maximum to start with. Right. Uh, only, only at the minimum place. I didn’t want them coming. To the maximum where there were the, it was just, it was just too scary and horror.

I didn’t want those pictures in their head. You wouldn’t want those them be thinking about that for the next few months? Well, yeah, I, I, I just didn’t want those visuals. Other people made different decisions, you know, if I’ve been there longer, perhaps, but, but, um, what other people choose to do with their children is up to them.

But for me, I didn’t want them having that imprint. So they saw me in the minimum, but coming home. I, if you, if you emerge from your situ, whether it be a bankruptcy, whether it be, you know, whatever, you know, how you are talking about what’s going on at work and in front of your children, be very aware of what you’re saying in front of your children and stop it.

You’re the grownup. you? You are the grownup. If you wanna go and have a tanty get in your car, drive to a drive, drive to a car park somewhere deserted and scream and shout and cry. Your lungs. Because, so basically you are the grown up and think about the consequences of anything that you do for your kids, really be careful what you do in front of them and what you say in front of them and about the people that you’re dealing with.

Um, they don’t deserve that sort of burden and kids take it on as a huge burden, you know, that, that sorrow and, uh, you. You will poison the next generation with your business and that. So what if, what if you are, um, if in the business context, what if you’ve got a business that is sinking and you’re really, really stressed?

How do you, cause you would’ve been in that sort of yeah. How do you deal with that with your kids? How do you have that? Not affect kids. Cause I mean, people listening now, who’ve got businesses that are in trouble who, and it’s overwhelming them. How do, how have you got any advice for them on that? Well, you, you don’t, you, your children are not your mentors.

They’re not your best friends. They’re not your girlfriend. You don’t unburden yourself to them when you are really. And I should put a gentler tone in my voice. okay. I think you’re allowed to have an opinion since you’ve actually had to address this for yourself. Yeah, well firstly, we didn’t, we didn’t splash our money around on our kids so that, you know, they were used to getting a hundred bucks and going go and get lost, go to the shops.

Here’s a hundred bucks or whatever you want. We didn’t do that. We, we were fairly, we were fairly, um, modest in our dealings with them financially as well. Cause we didn’t. Wealthy brats growing up. So there wasn’t a huge difference in lifestyle. We did move house. We had to go and go and rent and so on. Uh, we did put them in a school that like, we went to work to pay our lawyers and school fees so that they were in a nice in, you know, the environment that we wanted.

And we, we had that support. Um, so that’s where it went. When you are in that sit, there’s a spectrum. There’s, there’s like a journey. Uh, a, a, a, like a graph where it starts out, you know, your stress levels. And so on, early on, early as early as you can. And it’s never too late. Well, well, it was a bit too late for me, but firstly, reassess your boundaries and what you’re doing that you don’t need to be doing.

That’s adding stress to your life. If you are still making your 15 year old’s lunch, stop it. That’s you, you you’ve got weak. They can do that themselves. So that those sorts of things, add to your pressure with your business, get help and fells the, the fellas don’t like to ask for help, look then call it, consulting, call it, whatever you like.

So your ego can manage it. But seriously, what’s more important. Know the, you, you, you’ve got to have some humility. I’m not saying beat yourself up and say you are terrible, but no, we’re all on a journey. We’re all learning. Have some humility to think. Okay. I need to get some professional advice. So talk to your accountant, talk to, uh, you know, the professionals.

In in your world, if you belong to a chamber of commerce, chambers of commerce are terrific. You can go and have coffee with someone and, and say, look, you know, someone you trust and take a risk and be vulnerable because you don’t know what answers are out there that you have not reached for. And then as things do you know, if, if it does end up that you do end up losing everything you have still got your skills.

Yeah. That’s important. Isn’t it? You don’t, you don’t, you can’t. Everything. No. You might find that the people who know about it and who watch you go through. With integrity will be the ones who help you get up again and offer you a job. And you can’t be so proud that you think, oh, I couldn’t work for someone else.

That’s just your ego. You know, if you’ve gotta feed your family, you’ll get out there and you will, you will, you’ll do whatever it takes. And so there, there are, there are jobs out there. Um, and I know you have your heart in. What you’ve built, you know, if you’ve got, you know, everything’s in it, like losing a house, it’s like, oh, that’s my home.

Isn’t my home. No, it’s bricks. It’s mortar. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a shell. It’s a thing. It’s not a person. If you had to choose between a building and your health, you know, you get a choice, you get to lose your money or you get to die of cancer. What would you like? There’d be no, there’d be no question with.

You talk to someone who’s terminally ill and say, oh, you know, I’m just sort of thing. And they’ll be like, pull your head in , you know, like serious, because what it is, and, and especially for the faith, I’m a bit tougher on the faith people, Melanie, when I, when I talk to them because, uh, we have a word for it in my culture and it’s called, um, idolatry.

Right? So when you are too attached, To your material staff, that’s that sort of voice soul titles. Yeah. You’ve got to ask and, and you know, you don’t have to be a faith person to be attached to your stuff. Would you choose if your child needed a heart transplant and you’re in America where you’ve got, you know, and, and you don’t have health insurance.

What would you sell? Yeah. Everything would you, what would you trade? Yeah, you would do everything it took. So it’s all relative. It’s all about perspective, but if you go down and give into that bitterness and self pity and don’t get me wrong. If you look, go to the doctor and get some little helpers, you know, some antidepressants.

That sort of thing. Um, do that and, and, um, go for walks, uh, get out on the grass, take your shoes and socks off and put your bare feet on the grass and take deep breaths, go to the beach. Do these things do not turn on your partner, your, your spouse do not turn on them because my husband and I made this decision very deliberately and consciously that I, you know, we said to each other, everything that we have has been taken from.

Not taking us. Was he, did he? How, I mean, I was curious about that. Like, was he didn’t blame you never not once I did. I did. Yeah. I, I just beat myself up so badly, but no, he didn’t. He put the blame squarely on this fellow who had deceived us. Right. He said, that’s awesome. You got, you got sucked in and, and you know, he, he led you that way.

And what I know now about sociopaths and how they, you know, they make you think it’s your idea kind of thing. Mm-hmm, all that sort of stuff. Mm-hmm , that’s what I know now. I didn’t know then, uh, but my husband actually. Approached my lawyers. And he said, look, if it comes to a custodial sentence, uh, can I do it instead of her?

Oh, oh, what a beautiful husband. I know. And they said, well, no, you can’t. And I just said, look, honey, you are way too pretty for prison. so I’ll handle it much better than you. And, uh, and I, I do believe that I do think I, I handled it better than better than he would have. And I’d rather be dealing with me the damage one coming home than him coming home and me having to handle him because yeah, that makes sense actually.

I, I remember some years ago I had a serious illness and people around me were really distressed and I decided it was much easier to be the person with the serious illness than to be the people worried about the person with the serious illness. Yeah, that’s right. The same thing. Yeah. Yeah. So it was hard and, but the, I mentioned three questions and those three questions.

Are about, and this works for business. It works in the workplace. It works for all sorts of relationships when things are difficult and you’re having an issue I would ask, you know, I’ve got someone in front of me who’s being nasty and horrible. And I had plenty of opportunities to, to have to deal with that sort of behavior because they don’t pretend to be nice in prison.

Unlike in the business world where they smile at your face and then go and, you know, whatever it’s, although they did do that too, they’d pretend, and then stab you in the back as well. Um, that was a lot like, um, if you can remember the girls in the ninth grade, imagine all the mean girls grown up all in one place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just, that was just hideous. But even then I had to ask myself how else. Can I see this person now, I wasn’t consciously asking that question. Then I was like, this person is being horrible. I need to find a way to see them. Diff I know that these, you know, they’re damaged, their they’re hurt.

I, I, I didn’t justify their actions, but I looked for an explanation in their life. Cuz usually they were drug addict and they’d been dis you know, dysfunctional and they didn’t know any better, but I would. How else can I see it? Actually at the time I was praying, I was like, Lord, how do you see this person?

So I was asked, you know, I was looking for a different way to see that person. And today that what that looks like in the workplace is how else could I see this person who seems to be giving me grief. Okay. And the second one is, how else could I see these circumstances? Because you see your circumstances as bad as, and, and yes, it’s bad.

Yes it’s. Uh, but you, you see it as it can be like suffocating caving in where you can, you can’t breathe and your heart’s going, you have these panic attacks and, and you can’t sleep. And then you drink too much to make the, you know, there’s and you just feel like the walls are caving in and people don’t understand.

And, and because you’re anxious over here and you, and you’re highly strung all the time and your cortisol levels. Irish going through the roof, that, that you, you find it hard to be still and, and, um, go to the school and watch your child get their award. You just can’t sit. It’s just everything you fill that over.

How else can I see this and do it early on, early and off. And how, how else can I see this when you ask how else? That’s, when we notice things. It’s really powerful words, isn’t it? Because we tend to go, this is my situation. Yeah. We might, we go, when we say we see it as a fact that this is the circumstances and there is only one way to see them, but by actually fixed.

Yeah. But by actually challenging yourself to say, how else can I see it? You’re basically forcing your brain to look at it from a different perspective. That’s exactly right. There’s a lot of brain science to this. Yeah. It’s really interesting. Yep. And then there’s a third one. That’s a little trickier because we like to be right.

Mm-hmm often we would rather be, we’d rather be right than get it right. We’d rather be right than get it right. Because to get it right. Might mean that we right in the first one. So the first one is, how else could I see this person? How else could I see this situation? And the last one is, how else could I show up for this?

Okay. It’s powerful, man. Well, you can really, I guess you would ask yourself, how am I showing up for this? How, how, how am I really, how am I presenting for this? Am I being a dragon lady? Am I being a monstrous man, am I justifying my anxiety? My anger by, by with, with abusive outbursts at the wrong people.

Am I frightening my children to try and make them behave? Cuz the little bit that they do that plays up like normal kids do just, just sets you off because you’re so tense. How else can you, well, if you’re an employer with staff, same thing, how are you? Absolutely. If you’re a staff member, I’ll tell you a frightening story.

Okay. And the scariest thing in prison was not big birther. And I did share a cell with someone like that, but it wasn’t that it was when I had moved to the minimum security place. And, uh, I’m sitting in front of the warden who runs it. She’s in a very, she’s got a very severe short haircut. She’s got, uh, her, her uniform on, which is Navy and it’s like a police kind of a thing, but she’s not police it’s it was she.

Well, what she’s in her uniform that looks very daunting, very severe, very strict set up, very tall, very. You know, straight and she I’m sitting in front of her and I’m thinking my time here depends on how she sees me. Yeah. So I’m doing as much so she could let you out early potentially. No, no, not that it’s more, um, her attitude towards me, you know, I could, I could have a hard life there or a harder life there.

Right. Got it. You know, so I wanted to show. That I’m not such a bad person that I wanted to connect. I, and I said, you know, look, I trained as a teacher. And I said, look, I, I could help with the, um, literacy. I, I I’m happy. You know, how what’s you wanna rehabilitate me? I’m on board. You know, I didn’t need rehabilitation.

I wasn’t broken. I made a mistake. I did the wrong thing, but if they’ve got programs that are gonna help me be a better person, I’m in. It helps pass the time it’s something to do. So, so I was trying to connect and I’m pretty good at connecting with people, Melanie, you know, when you and I spoke last night for the first time we connected pretty well we’re you know, but I tell you, she was, she was looking at me, she was ticking her boxes.

She would question me and she would look at her boxes and. Make a comment, whatever, like with her pencil and I’m looking at her as she’s looking at me and with horror, I realized, I thought the blood drain from my face that she was not looking at me. So she wasn’t seeing you. She was seeing offender D 4, 2, 5 86.

Wow. I. Invisible. Wow. And if I’m invisible, I’m a number. And if something were to happen to me in there, Melanie, I would be no more than an incident report. Yeah. Wow. That must feel very, very strange. Very strange. Oh, it was, it was just like, oh boy, this is. This is, this woman was so she just, she was so hard.

And so she just, there was no cracking there, there was just, it was just an in, I was looking at an institution with a face seriously, and I guess she’d had the years, she probably had lots of people try to connect with her, manipulate her, of course, you know? And so she’d just had a wall and she wasn’t gonna see you as a human.

Yeah. She’s been doing it for years. She’s, you know, you can’t help, but be a bit institutionalized when you’ve been there that long. And you’re used to seeing all this stuff, but that that’s. That’s what I read into it. And that’s, that’s the intent. I, and I realized, I don’t think I was far wrong with, with what I was in for.

And I actually found minimum security, much harder to deal with than maximum, because that’s interesting. Yeah, because we, why is that? Well, they’re classified as, uh, nonviolent low risk. Uh, there are different class of people and those girls, those women, mostly young women, they’re not so rough and tough, but they can be every bit as nasty or more so.

Right. And. Better at it. And I mean, yes, they’re just as damaged and, and so on, but it’s more psychological. Right. So, you know, that was hard. Um, but once again, I still had to try and find another way to see them so that I could forgive. And so I could face them the next day and, and not. You know, like I thought, how do you live with yourself when you behave that way?

And when you’re just that mean, and I guess they have their security with their little posse of, of, you know, mean friends and, and being mean can give people significance and all that sort of thing. And it can, and I then had to protect my heart from becoming judgemental and hard, even against that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So in the workplace, sometimes it’s not different. You, you have different cultures where it can be competitive and some bosses pit their staff against one another and have little tattle tails running to them and doing those sorts of things. Don’t do that. It’s like, you wonder. Someone who will gossip with you, will gossip about you.

And, you know, it’s, it’s just, it’s just not, if that’s the reason your business is falling apart. Well, you know, maybe do some reassessments. I don’t know, but, but, uh, and I don’t wanna blame anyone, you know, look, we, we all stuff up and we all, we’ll, we’re all learning. Yeah. How we see people makes all the difference, but pulling back from, you know, disaster business, even if, if you’re a leader with staff and you’ve got somebody in front of you that, uh, maybe has made a mistake and you’ve gotta bring some correction, firstly.

Think about them, that they’re sitting there and understand that they feel threatened regardless. They’ve made a mistake. They’re gonna wanna defend themselves. They’re fearful. Uh, they might not look fearful. They might be put a bit of bravado on, or they will say whatever they need to, to get outta that situation and get it over with.

So I would ask you to ask yourself, do I see, am I looking at the person or the problem? Because if you’re focused on the problem, you’re gonna see that person through that filter and you’re gonna feel annoy. And if you’re annoyed at them, it will show, it will slip out. And that’s an attack that they’re gonna sense.

And they’re gonna go into defense mode and they’re gonna reg react or respond to that. Aren’t they? Yeah. When, what you want is to solve the problem, you, what you want, you’ve invested in this person. You’ve hired them. You wanna work out how you can help them not to make that mistake again so that they learn and do better.

You want to help them with their people skills so that they’re not upsetting the other staff and they’re gonna be touchy. And, you know, there’s, there’s plenty of courses and personality assessments and all sorts of things to help you handle people. But number one is, is how you, how you connect with them.

You cans ’em but is that gonna solve the problem? You get another person coming in, you know, and you’re not their parent. You don’t run your business. Like a lot of small businesses, the bosses run it like their parents and the staff are children. They’re not. And then they go, oh, they’re not loyal. Why should they be loyal when you put them on contract and casual and take away, you know, like so many companies have done that.

Mm-hmm, say loyalty goes both ways. Doesn’t it? Loyalty goes both ways. So does honor. So does honor. And so does caring and empathy. Now you do have to have your boundaries in. You’re not their mom. You’re not, you’re not gonna cover up for them. You, you do not compromise on legal things. Ever. Someone asked me if I would do it all over again, given what I’m like, no, you think comes silly.

No, all, but you know, the good that’s come out of it. So this is what you’ve gotta think of it. And, and these three questions. Melanie, how else can I see this person in front of me? Whether it’s your spouse, whether it’s your child, whether it’s your staff, whether it’s your customer, you know, whether you’re, whether it’s your supplier, um, let’s, let’s, you know, always assume stuff up rather than conspiracy.

Yeah. Even if it is a conspiracy. Yeah. Someone said to me once, if the choice is, um, ATA versus incompetence, always assuming incompetence. Yeah. But don’t make them like, they’re stupid. Just just, um, yeah, just, they made a mistake. Yeah. You know, I think there might have been, uh, you know, something overlook overlooked here, perhaps that you might have, you know, whatever.

But I mean, some people are touchy no matter what, but most people, most of the time, you know, you, you can, if you see them differently, if you ask how you can see them differently, you will start seeing them differently. You will see different things about that’s very wise. So, so let’s just recap your three things.

The first one is how do I see this person differently? How else could I see this person? How else could I see this person then? What was the next one? How else could I see these circumstances? Right. And then the third one, the third one is, is really a combination of how am I showing up for this? How else could I show up for this?

Cause you don’t even be conscious of how you are. You know, sometimes we don’t realize that we are showing up cranky. Yeah. So it’s not just what our other people in the circumstances doing, but what am I doing as well? Yeah. Like a lot of men. Their resting face looks angry. That’s why women get picked at, for having a resting B face.

Yeah, because they’re not used to seeing it in women. no, but men it’s always like, stop it well, oh, you know what? Well, if you are just be aware and you know, it’s intimidating and, and that if, and if intimidating people makes, gives you a bit of a thrills yourself, I, I can’t work with you yourself. So just before we wrap up, tell me what you are doing now.

And I know you’ve got lots of YouTube videos and stuff, and we’ll put some links on the episode page so that people can go and. A lot more of, you know, the good stuff that you’ve been doing and that you can share. Yeah. But tell, just give us a little overview of what you are doing people with the now and why you chose to do that.

I would love to. So I work with organizations who want to build resilience in their leaders and teams, so that they’re adaptable in our changing world. Right. They’re adaptable to each other. They’re adaptable to that. They can problem solve that they’re empower. So that when COVID runs its course, and we face something else, an adaptable company that has invested in its leaders and teams will be like a surfer who negotiates those waves.

Yeah. That, that they can do that because they’re equipped. So I do that through keynote. For conferences and things, but I also do it as workshops for staff, for their leadership, for their sales team, for their customer service, because anywhere that, that deals with people, uh that’s, that’s how I come in.

And the beautiful thing about it is the story that comes with it. Cause I do have the, the corporate and sales background anyway, but when people hear the story, the lessons stick. Yeah, it’s pretty hard to tell you that you don’t know what you know to go, oh, you don’t know what it’s like to have a tough time.

It’s like, ah, have you seen my story? yeah. Gives you, yeah. Interesting. So the lessons would stick because it’s a memorable story. It’s a remarkable story. And it’s remarkable that you came through this with, with the grace that you did, where it was, you know, how do I, how do I learn from this? I don’t know how many people go to jail and one of their early thoughts is how am I.

Make this a learning experience. Well, you, you have to with everything, but the self-care is important that, that you, you know, when you’re under pressure, look at your boundaries, what can you delegate? What no longer needs to be done. What’s been superseded and pull the, take the time to work on your business so that you’re not just in it all the time, you know, like a duck, you know, with the feet flailing under the water, uh, you are worth taking care of and investing in every bit.

As much as your staff are, you probably spend lots of money on your staff wellbeing and probably at your own. That’s not okay. You gotta take care of yourself and your family, you know? Cause your, your kids will grow up before you know it and they’ll be gone. And how you are with them now will determine how often they wanna come home and see you.

And which old folks home they choose for you. and yes, what’s that line be nice to your children, cuz they’ll be choosing your old folks home. there you go. So people can find me. I, I have, uh, two, uh, well the, the business role that I do, they can find me at speaker Trish Jenkins dot. Speak back. Trish Jenkins speaker.

Yes. Speaker Trish jenkins.com it on the episode page. Yep. That’s great. And I have a, if they wanna, there’s plenty of videos, testimonials media appearances there. Plus they have a YouTube channel, which is just my name. It’s it’s youtube.com. Uh, and, and it’s just Trish Jenkins. On YouTube, Google me, Google me.

You’ll find me everywhere. Uh, and then on the other side of things, for those of your listeners who are involved in, um, faith in, in churches, in parachurch groups, uh, women’s groups, I do ministry as well. And that is, uh, you got a separate website for that. Separate website is Trish Jenkins, ministries.com.

And they can, I mean, Google me, both of them will come up. I have a separate YouTube channel for that, uh, which they they’ll, they’ll find all of that, but mainly, um, just Google my name and you. You can choose which direction you wanna go to for those, my corporate work is not ministry. Well, I, I call it ministry, but, you know, I keep to the brief with the corporate stuff.

The ministry stuff is, is more behind the scenes where, where the, that, um, backstory kind of comes into it. And if people do wanna read my story, I have got my book, which is called treasures of darkness, a prison journey. And that was my, I wrote letters and journal E. While I was incarcerated, so they can take the journey with me in, in real time as you are going through it.

Yeah. Real time now I don’t wanna spoil the ending, but she gets out , I’m pleased that she go gets out . Yeah. And for those, for those who are making business decisions, I have two books, uh, one specifically for women, and then I made it made a gender neutral book on, um, how to avoid getting ripped off in finance.

And relationships and it it’s about how to make better decisions and what questions you need to ask before you go into a relationship or a business deal or a partnership. These are questions that your lawyer and your, and your accountant, uh, either legally cannot tell you to ask, or it’s just, it’s outside their scope.

So it’s not your typical due diligence of it’s more the. Well, there is that there too. I, I have got lists of things that you need to check on licenses, you know, check the license number is valid and, and, and the structures and, and, uh, you know, having an exit strategy and so on. But it’s also about what you need to know about that person, what you need to listen for in their languaging.

How do they speak about their last partnership? Mm-hmm how do they speak about their. Their last partner. Mm-hmm how, who do they blame for their last is how do they talk about a mistake that they made? Who do they blame? Do they take responsibility? Do they make themselves into a hero? And that’s true, whether it’s a business or a personal relationship, isn’t it, those important questions in the way that, and the decisions they make around money, uh, are they someone who can, who, who has no problem with being dishonest on little things, they all change in the shop and doesn’t tell them that sort of.

Well, that’s right. I mean, are they, do they have moral integrity? You know, this might, you might not agree with me. Some people may not think it’s relevant, but if someone is cheating on their spouse and you know about it and they know, you know, well, that’s their primary relationship. So if they’re gonna do that to their spouse, what are they gonna do to you?

Yeah. When the temptation comes. It’s a very good question. Good thought. So, um, I’m conscious, we’ve gone way over time, but it’s been so interesting. I don’t think anyone’s gonna mind at all. Have you got any sort of pattern words that you would like to leave people with? Yes, I do. There is always hope.

There is always a way out. There is always another way to see things you can get help. It’s not the end of the world. Please get help. If you are suffering mentally, go to the doctor, get some professional help. There’s no shame in it. It will give you some root, some relief and some room to be able to think.

Cuz when you are highly stressed, you can’t think so. There’s no shame in getting some medication to help you with that and getting some counsel. That’s that’s that, um, you are worth it. You are worth taking care of and your family are worth it too. Don’t take it out on them. People say they have to love me.

They don’t, a lot of them leave. Don’t be that statistic, but it’s never too late. And even when you have lost it all, there is hope you can come back. I thought I’d messed up my life. Permanently with you. How do you, how do you deal with the criminal record and your, and your profession is, is in sales and, you know, no one wanted to gimme a job.

I don’t qualify to stack shelves at woos, but I can make a difference in people’s lives now. So look at what you do have and think about how you are gonna tell your story. Afterwards, what light are you gonna paint yourself in do that? That is, that is wonderful. That is, I don’t think there’s anything I can say to, to, um, Chuck, that that’s just amazing.

Thank you so much, Trisha, for that. I think that’s gonna be a really powerful message for people and I really appreciate you sharing it. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. This episode of the cactus project is sponsored by global training Institute. Australia’s leading online training college. It was presented and written by Mel McDonald produced, edited, and visually designed by Maggie.

Has we hope you found this interview interesting for more inspiring stories from people whose businesses went wrong and how they recovered all went. This, as we saying Australia, please subscribe to the cactus project on your favorite podcast app and visit our website at www.thecactusprojectpodcast.com.

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